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Forum:Faction Images
This has been an elephant in the room for a long time and two-way discussion on Alpha Squadron isn't really sufficient. Basically this is the faction images, and their reversion. Which, while on the subject, I think we really need to be careful of deleting images, given the increased difficulty in accessing the history box. Thanks wikia... In essence, black, I think, should be used in place of white. Firstly, there's the three cases where black has been confirmed as being a distinct faction logo colour-Omega Squadron via Ghost and the Ara and Shelak logos via boardgame artwork. Does this mean the other logos are distinctly black? No. But there's at least a basis for them. The issue remaining is the white background. I can understand the issue, even if I don't consider it one. The default gray background is more preferable I guess, though there's been mixed success. The Umojan Protectorate logo works, the Alpha Squadron logo not so much. I can't really comment on scanning difficulties, given certain planet images that I'll have to correct at some point. Indeed, even my improved scanner use can't cover the fact that circular images (boardgame) don't translate well to rectangular image boxes (Ara and Shelak). I'd admittedly find the black and white images more preferable, but from what we understand, the boardgame images are closer to canon. In essence, we have a choice-black images in gray background, or black images in white background. White images in gray background however, is something I can't condone, as while arguably a neutral colour, every black image in the manual that has an outside counterpart has been validated for its...blackness in other sources. There's simply no precedent for whiteness (good thing this isn't a racial context). Whatever the case, I think a certain Umojan quality is required for alteration rather than the Alpha example. Still, there's a bit of a precedent for a white outline via the Ara and Shelak images, so I'm willing to let that pass for now.--Hawki 12:32, November 25, 2010 (UTC) Edit: Actually, looking at the Auriga Tribe image, and the Judicator and Templar Caste images which use similar white boxes...yeah, I'm very much in favour of white backgrounds. I'll leave them for now though, see what others think.--Hawki 12:34, November 25, 2010 (UTC) b.net, both the current website, and the SC2 interface, gives us the precedent for white. Specifically, white with grey borders on a black background. Given that the b.net background is black anyway, I interpret black to mean "transparent", which works well with what is seen in-game (which is based on the player's colour, so that is hardly definitive either.) So yes, there is clear and much more recent precedent for white where the colour is unknown. And given the choice, we should use white, since it goes very well on the generally dark wiki backgrounds. I am definitely not in favour of images with integral filled backgrounds. Blizzard may be mostly unsure of the colour of the logo itself, but transparent background seems to something they've kept throughout the years. - Meco (talk, ) 23:18, November 25, 2010 (UTC) B.net, as you mention, is effectively game mechanics. The background is black, so the image has to be a different colour for contrast. The only time where white has been confirmed as an in-universe colour is for Raynor's Raiders. And of the decals that stand in contrast to other sources, only the Shelak Tribe and Akilae Tribe feature such contrast. Using a white Shelak logo might be more appropriate, but there's no real indication of it for any other tribe or group within the issue's scope.--Hawki 23:37, November 25, 2010 (UTC) Looking at the images, I've made the Shelak logo white again-it's a case of 1 vs. 1 in colour, but white makes more sense given its tribal colour. For the Akilae logo, it's 1 case of white (decal) vs. 2-3 cases of black. And given the 'energy effect' present in later artwork, it's more official IMO-the lack of it on a decal is understandable.--Hawki 23:57, November 25, 2010 (UTC) I am satisfied, on the current evidence, to create svgs with Omega as black with grey/white border, Akilae as black with bluish-white border, Ara as black with grey/white border. I am not satisfied, with the current evidence, to go with black for Alpha, Nova or Auriga. Unless these appear outside of the SC1 manual of SC2 b.net, the wiki's needs are better served with these being white with grey borders. - Meco (talk, ) 00:22, November 26, 2010 (UTC) Except they don't appear on b.net. They only appear in the manual, and black at that. I don't see how it serves the wiki's 'needs' to use images that have no real precedent. The image itself is far more important than the background it's in.--Hawki 00:27, November 26, 2010 (UTC) The image itself is far more important than the background it's in. Exactly, which is why Blizzard, when choosing the colour in the manual and b.net, simply went with the best fit. Which is what I've been saying all along for the unknowns: if Blizzard saw fit to simply choose a "best fit" colour for unknowns, we can to without being less accurate than Blizzard. In our case, "best fit" is white as we have dark backgrounds, which happens to be situation Blizzard found itself in on b.net. - Meco (talk, ) 01:00, November 26, 2010 (UTC) I think we have different interpretations of that phrase. When I say the phrase, I consider it important in the sense that it appears in. The difference between the manual and b.net is that alternate colours within images is still possible in the former-take the KMC and Umojan Protectorate. It would have been possible to make the images white with a black/gray outline if they wanted-it's used often enough. For b.net, I don't know if it's possible. B.net is far more of an unknown than the manual. Another thing to consider is, strangely enough, the manual to Tides of Darkness. For the kingdom/clan logos, it's demonstration of the fact that it was well within Blizzard's capabilities to alternate within images if they wanted to. For art, we have a better understanding with capabilities. B.net, not so much. So in essence, I think it's quite speculative to use white images for black ones where white's never been used. The only time where we have white and black for the same image is effectively for the Akilae and Shelak. For Akilae, black wins out as it's appeared in bona fide coloured art. For Shelak, white wins out IMO, as it's 1 vs. 1, but white is probably the more logical colour. For the rest, there's no alternates.--Hawki 01:12, November 26, 2010 (UTC) The b.net decals do allow for multi-colours. Thus far, it's only needed for the War Pigs decal. It uses a grey and white on black scheme instead of a simple white on black. Converting the KMC and Umojan logos into b.net decals would use the same method used to convert the other SC logos: black-to-white and white-to-black. While I don't mind the Shelak logo being white, I think it is for the wrong reason. I thought it was agreed a while back that faction colours were not applicable to logos without prior art. If we're allowing the Shelak to use their faction colour, that opens the door to doing the same for the rest of the unknowns. - Meco (talk, ) 02:31, November 26, 2010 (UTC) Yes, I agree with the faction colour, but that's not why the Shelak one is white. It's because it's white in the decals, compared to the black one in the manual. I think white is more appropriate because of the tribal colour, but if it wasn't for the decal, I wouldn't make it white. It's effectively the "prior art" rule in effect. As for the b.net decals, that doesn't change the fact that very few have appeared that have artwork elsewhere. The Akilae and Shelak/Sargas are really the only cases. For the Akilae, black, because it's that most of the time and has better artwork images anyway. For the Shelak, white, because it's their tribal colour (but again, only because the decal is white). Consider the fact that each image should be sourced. A white image from a black source doesn't really cut it. Otherwise I think it is opening the doors to insert art we think is 'better' than what we're provided. Fan art isn't posted for good reason, even if there are plenty of examples where it would make great additions. Colour alteration is practically bordering on that.--Hawki 03:04, November 26, 2010 (UTC) Very well. I will make the needed black copies of the logos, with transparent grey borders. Except for Akilae and Ara, which will have solid bluish-white borders. - Meco (talk, ) 03:00, November 27, 2010 (UTC)